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| User: | sokth (5434423) If This Journal Was Music, It Would Be The Mortal Combat Theme
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| Name: | Just call me comrade. | |||||
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| Bio: | A sweet mistake, just like you. Mainly used for the occasional thoughtful thought (a surprisingly rare thing), don't expect many updates. However, I'd like to think that when I do update, it is to raise an interesting question and perhaps spark an illuminating debate. HOLY CRAP ANTI-ISRAEL SENTIMENT 12.11.2005 - 30.11.2005 Me: Now, I'm not saying this Israelis have been given a good time. Persecuted across the globe, they've generally had a harsh life. But then again, I'm not one to judge people differently on who they are; they're still making the same mistakes, and should be treated as such. They have no right - none at all - to march into Palestine and claim it as their own. Sure, it's their holy city; but it's also that of the people that have lived there for the last 2000 years or so. You can't just forget about them. And saying it's theirs because it was, "once upon a time"? Come on, that's just bullshit. Surely, in that case, the descendants of any civilisation ever to be on this globe could claim their land back. Should Romans be allowed to claim all of what used to be their empire? Should the same be said for the descendants of Ghengis? It's a simply ludicrous proposition. Even worse still, there's this problem people seem to have with understand that they are not helpless. They get something like $3000000 a year from the US government; for what? Roads? Their nuclear arsenal is bigger than that of England! the IDF (Israel Defence Forces) rely not on numbers, but on the quality of training and modern technology, either built at home or imported from the USA. And what about the Six-Day War? Israel launches a 'pre-emptive strike' at Egypt; is attacked by Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Israel only had 50,000 troops, compared to Egypt's 150,000, Jordan's 55,000 and Syria's 75,000. Within Six Days, the surrounding Arab countries were beaten into submission by the "poor, defenceless state". That's just an example of what has happened; and the US with their 'road money' have gone a long way to doing that. I'm not saying that I agree with the past of the Israelis, nor that the actions of groups such as the PLO are right. I'm just saying that Israel, how ever bad it's people's history, has no right to be built on other people's land, over their corpses. It's just not right. Aggressor: Look, for God's sakes... no-one pretends Israel's a "poor, defenceless state". It's got an arsenal that can challenge others reasonably well: but, seeing it's current location, you can kind of understand why they need it. And it wasn't a "pre-emptive strike on Egypt"; ALL the surrounding Arab countries (Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon) tried to destroy Israel utterly, and let me remind you that if this ever were to happen, this would be another HOLOCAUST. Ask yourself, calmly and quietly, what do you think would happen to the people of Israel if they ever lost a war? You are obviously completely unfamiliar with the vile anti-semitic propaganda that can be found in any Arab country. The Arabs failed in their war of annihilation, they were defeated on the battlefield in 'Six Days'. And just as a pointer, Egypt and Jordan are on good terms with Israel now. Palestine -- originally, and marked by historical record (aside from the Bible) belonged to the Hebrew peoples; where do you think the Hebrew language comes from, Manchester? It used to be called Canaan -- beyond a doubt the homeland, for want of a better word, for the Hebrew people. It was then conquered by the Romans and re-named Palestine. Palestine (Palestina) is a Roman word. And, excuse me, but do the Italians WANT their empire back? Do the Mongolian people WANT to have a chunk of China? I think not. They already have SOMEWHERE TO LIVE; a safe haven. They are not threatened constantly, night and day, by total annihilation and suicide bombs. The nuclear arsenal is actually speculated over, but it is not that large. To correct your delusion, or mis-information, the biggest recipient of US money is actually Egypt; any money Israel receives is used for development in the form of economic aid, and yes, arms. But remind yourself -- why not? They are after all fighting a constant battle. The US sells arms to almost all of the Middle-Eastern countries, a well-known fact that is often convieniently forgotten. They just remember, unlike the corrupt governments of Egypt, to spend it on the right things, and not guns and grenades for small children of six and seven. Yes, in some cases, roads. Schools. Police stations. Hospitals. Etc. And so should they have a well-trained elite army! So does Switzerland, to name but one! The Six Day War was actually a fight to prevent arms build-up in the surrounding countries, fought entirely without ANY aid from the US, Britain, France, Germany, Japan etc., contrary to what you have written. It was, in fact, for Israel a matter of national survival. Egypt had closed the Straits of Tiran (on the Red Sea) which was a stranglehold on Israel's sea-lanes. Any corpses that Israel are only of their own people, a testament to their bloody struggle to survive. Me: Perhaps you somewhat misunderstood my argument. I'm not interested in arguing over small details with you. However, it can't be said that the US had no hand in the combat. They equiped the soldiers, in the end, and gave the money that made training available. There wouldn't be another holocaust, becase things have changed. The west, as Ali so nicely put it, has made a reputation for itself of "butting in". The UN did it, the Americans did it. It's about time that the west realised the huge mistake they made over there. And... 'Six Days'? Do you want to know how that 'pre-emptive war' between Jordan and Israel began? It began when an Israeli border patrol hit a mine. Three men were killed in the incident. Israelis believed that it had been planted by Es Samu - on the morning of the 13th of November, one day after the incident, King Hussein recieves word from Israeli officials stating no action will be taken. However, at 5:30 on the very same day IDF forces attacked the village Es Samu; harbouring 4,000 inhabitants, all Palestinian refugees accused of terrorism or protecting terrorists. Perhaps that isn't enough. Perhaps you want to know the details. It was called, funnily enough, "Operation Shredder". 3,000-4,000 soldiers hit the village and the surrounding areas, destroying Samu's only clinic as well as a girl's school, the post office, a coffee shop and roughly 140 houses. Now, whilst I understand how some sympathiers of the Israeli cause could excuse this as some sort of mistake, or even that they were terrorists. But I miss the bit where the corpses were Israelite. The UN, of course, gave warning to that, stating it wouldn't be tolerated and condemming the entire movement. I'm sorry if this sounds a little harsh, but I really don't believe that this country has any right whatsoever to build itself from the land of people who've lived there for 2000 years, and then to use the funds of perhaps the most corrupted nation on the face of this globe to wage war on the people it stole land, homes and lives from. Aggressor: I think I can safely say: What? You seem obsessed with the details yet cannot even get the most basic of facts correct. It started in JUNE, not November. November? What are you talking about? What a load of confused rubbish. If you think that something like the destruction of the Jewish nation is a minor detail, I can safely say that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. "Things have changed"? Please. As I said before, just browse (lightly) through any Arab media -- eg Hamas, who you seem to be so fond of -- and you will see what they have to say about Jews. Then come back and tell me there wouldn't be another Holocaust. Must I repeat myself? The US had no hand in the equipping of the Israeli army; I believe they are quite able to do that themselves (as they have proved countless times). So, when faced with such obvious anti-semitism, please, tell me: what do you want them to do? Lay down and die, like they did in Germany? And Es Samu. Where are you getting your information from?...To you it could be the name of a supermarket in Beijing. No such event ever took place! And if any civilians were killed in any similar incident, you can be sure it was because the terrorists, scum, were hiding in that girl's school, that clinic and those houses. It is a well-known ploy of theirs; proved on countless occasions. A freedom-fighter does not hide amongst those he is protecting, contrary to the unsavoury phrase "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". Do you have a better way of dealing with that situation? 2000 years is NOTHING. The Jews were there WELL before that. It seems I cannot stress this enough -- the Arab invasion only came in the seventh century. Your chronology is, quite frankly, appalling. I've never heard you once mention the thousands, countless, of Israelis who have been murdered at the hands of Arab terrorists JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWS. It is all over their websites -- videos of those they have callously butchered. That is where the "Israelite corpses" came from. Put it this way: if the Arabs gave up their arms, there would be peace. If the Israelis did, there would be another Holocaust. Me: I'm sorry, but am I supposed to take half of that seriously? I mean, the best bit was "To you it could be the name of a supermarket in Beijing. No such event ever took place! And if any civilians were killed in any similar incident, you can be sure it was because the terrorists, scum, were hiding in that girl's school, that clinic and those houses. It is a well-known ploy of theirs; proved on countless occasions." That really made me crack up. Also, the propaganda. Countless times people have made anti-whatever propaganda; it hasn't led to a holocaust. Whilst terrorist organisations may be capable of such things, I was in fact referring to the UN - who had already stepped in to stop your dear Israelis from butchering more "terrorists" in their evil-fortress health clinics and girl's schools of doom. And... "I've never heard you once mention the thousands, countless, of Israelis who have been murdered at the hands of Arab terrorists JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWS." Wrong. I've said that I do not agree in any way with the actions many Arabs have taken, including groups like the PLO. Perhaps in future you should take the time to read my replies properly before coming up with half-witted answers? Also, which one of us is obsessed with the details, if you pick at tiny so-called mistakes. The destruction of the Jewish nation is in no way a minor detail; I'm simply arguing against it's validity as a country. It has no right to be there. Simple as that. Please, don't insult my chronology - we're not talking Arabs, we're talking Romans. Or maybe you're just bunching people into those schoolgirl terrorists? Also, you wanted to know where my information is coming from? Wikipedia. www.wikipedia.org , in case you've never heard of it; I'm quite convinced of that. Check up the six-day war, under "Israel and Jordan: The Samu Incident". And, hey - if you're too goddamn dumb to manage that, I'll quote directly from Wikipedia. "On 12 November an Israeli border patrol hit a mine, killing three soldiers and injuring six others. The Israelis believed the mine had been planted by terrorists from Es Samu on the West Bank. Early on the morning 13 November, 1966 King Hussein, who had been having secret meetings with Abba Eban and Golda Meir for three years concerning peace and secure borders, received an unsolicited message from his Israeli contacts stating that Israel had no intention of attacking Jordan. [3] However, at 5:30 am in what Hussein described as an action carried out "under the pretext of 'reprisals against the terrorist activities of the P.L.O.' Israeli forces attacked Es Samu, a Jordanian village of 4,000 inhabitants, all of them Palestinian refugees whom the Israelis accused of harboring terrorists from Syria". [4]" Enough? More information? "In "Operation Shredder", Israel's largest military operation since 1956, a force of around 3,000-4,000 soldiers backed by tanks and aircraft divided into a reserve force, which remained on the Israeli side of the border, and two raiding parties, which crossed into the West Bank. The larger force of 8 Centurion tanks followed by 400 paratroopers mounted in 40 open-topped half-tracks and 60 engineers in 10 more half-tracks headed for Samu, while a smaller force of 3 tanks and 100 paratroppers and engineers in 10 half-tracks headed towards two smaller villages, Kirbet El-Markas and Kirbet Jimba, on a mission to blow up houses. In Samu, Israeli soldiers destroyed the village's only clinic, a girls' school, the post office, a coffee shop and around 140 houses." Further information from the page on Israel, concerning the training and equiping of the IDF: "The IDF is considered one of the strongest military forces in the Middle East and ranks among the most battle-trained armed forces in the world, having had to defend the country in five major wars. The IDF's main resource is the training quality of its soldiers, but it also relies heavily on high-tech weapons systems (both developed and manufactured in Israel for its specific needs, and also largely imported from the United States), and expert manpower, rather than possession of overwhelming manpower." Of course, please continue to question the assembled intellect of the numerous professors, historians and numerous other experts that have edited the material on Wikipedia - or perhaps they're all simply broadcasting more "vile anti-semitic propaganda" over the internet. Obviously, you're more intelligent than all of these people, and can prove them all wrong that this slaughter of innocent life never happened. I'd like to note that I am not "fond" of Hamas in any way - maybe you can't read english, or need glasses, in which case I apologise. Otherwise, back to my previous statement: if you wish to debate, please read properly. And... "obvious anti-semitism"? I'm disgusted. Absoloutely disgusted. I don't know whether I can be bothered to continue this debate - you seem bent on using the words "holocaust" and "anti-semetism" to influence me; perhaps it's my background? I know perfectly well that a few generations ago my family persecuted Jews - but it's disgusting to sink that low. I can only draw on one of two conclusions; either that you are simply too stupid to understand that I'm not harbouring prejudice against Jews, only the state of Israel - either that or you're simply running far too low on information to build a civilised response, relying on allegations of falsehood. It's sickening to read; at least, when I'm not laughing. My country's history should not decree the way I think, whatever people like you may think. I've had it with hard-headed idioits like you. You present no solid argument, instead preferring to pick apart tiny non-important errors in my writing. What will it be next, spelling errors? If anyone's being racist, it's you against Arabs. They have a right to have their land - not to have it stolen from them, and then slaughtered by US-funded armies. My Support: Why, oh why (yes its going to be that type of post). Must people always make this about religion? I know what you are about to say. It IS about religion, I’m afraid your casual assumption is wrong. Its about land and people, as people always have hate their enemies. That is the fundamental difference between this conflict and the Holocaust, that was racial persecution in perhaps its purest (if that’s a suitable term) form. This is war, it is different, they hate each other because of the land, no matter on race creed or colour they hate each other because they are the enemy. Same as Americans making Gook jokes in Vietnam for example. The reason for the persistent and mutual hate is the land. Which brings us very neatly to point. The land was indeed known as Canaan, inhabited by a people, as lands often are. Known as the Canaanites, who had occupied said land since 3000 BC until 1000BC (-ish ;-) ) With the Israelite conquest. Surprise, surprise, the Israelites had not in fact been there since they evolved. Indeed they make no such claims themselves, why you oh anonymous spreader of malice, are making such claims for them is beyond me. Still back to your point. ‘I've never heard you once mention the thousands, countless, of Israelis who have been murdered at the hands of Arab terrorists JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWS.’ A quaint one I’ll give you that, but bizarre. How exactly are the PLO meant to fight the Israelites? Don’t get me wrong, what they are doing is by no means ‘just’ or ‘fair’ or anything else it should be. What it is is desperation. They have nothing because it was taken from them, by men with machine guns, fighter planes and tanks (made in USA… and the UK but then we sell guns to EVERYBODY) and the star of David on their chest. What would you do I wonder? The UN ignoring you, your enemies technology so far in advance of yours that your armies are cut apart in the field and indeed the entire international community against you because of your faith. I don’t condone them, but I think I can understand them. And its not because they are Jews, its because they are Jews who had their land given to them in a token gesture of guilt on behalf of the allied powers and they were ignored. Pushed aside. Not because they are Jews but because they are there. So at least understand the question at stake. Aggressor (to me): Well, well, whatever you may say, you're quite a little racist, (anti-semitic strand) aren't you? Listen to yourself: "I'm not against Jews, just Israel". Israel is the Jewish state, you moron: it's central to Jewish life. If you're against Israel you're against the Jews, full stop. Try saying to yourself "I'm not against the Japanese, just Japan", I'm not against Azeris, just Azerbaijan", "I'm not against Mongols, just Mongolia". See how many responses you'll get telling you how stupid you are. Dealing now with some of your other points. You mention at the end of your message that "the Arabs have a right to their land, not to have it stolen from them and then be slaughtered by US funded armies". You certainly couldn't have noticed but I ought to inform you that there are 22 Arab countries out there with a combined population of 200 million people. Is that not enough for you? Is this massive chunk of the planet not enough for you? Are you such an anti-semite that you cannot find it within your heart to allow the Jews a tiny slither of land of their own? Are you aware that Israel is the same size as Wales, yes, Wales? I also ought to inform you that the land was not stolen from the Arabs as you state; Israel was granted statehood by the United Nations. Palestine was partitioned legally; the Jews accepted their part but the Arabs rejected theirs. They've regretted that choice ever since. Israel was designed and conceived as a haven from racists like you; there's nothing more to it than that. Please also remember that much of the land that became Israel had been purchased from Arabs over the preceding 100 years or so. Additionally, do you really think that a tiny number of Jews really could impose their will on so many Arabs in 1948? They had to strain every sinew just to keep the miniscule piece of land they had been granted. Remember Israel was attacked by four Arab countries on the day she was born. Happily, she was able to survive. If not, the Arabs would have finished off the project that the Germans had started just a few years earlier. It is no accident that many Nazi war criminals fled to Egypt, Syria and Iraq at the end of the Second World War. Finally, on your quote above, the part about US weaponry. You certainly won't know, but in Israel's war of liberation of 1948 she was armed almost entirely by Czechoslovakia; if only she had been armed by the US then she'd have been able to defeat the Arabs even more easily and more lives would've been saved. Moving on to some of your other points. There is no space here to list the atrocities carried out by Arabs on Israelis and other Jews. However, you seem to be keen on encyclopaedias so you could start looking yourself. Go to any good reference book and look up entries like Ma'alot (Arab slaughter of Jewish children in a school)or you should look at Djerba (53 Jews murdered inside a synagogue). That's just a small start I assure you. You might be interested also in focusing on the 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries in the 1940s; they had to leave within 48 hours with just the clothes on their backs. By the way, you're not seriously claiming that Arab terrorists do not hide in schools and mosques are you ? This is well-documented. Don't forget also that relatives of these terrorists for whom you have so much sympathy dance in the streets and give sweets to children after their "successful" missions in Israel. Successful means the slaughter of the innocents in bars and restaurants... that's what it means. These murderers dance in the same way that they danced after the murders of September 11th 2001 in New York. Now, turning to you. You say you're not fond of Hamas. Who or what are you fond of? I can tell you that your position is identical to that of the Islamo-Fascists of Hamas. You want the destruction of Israel, so do they. They want to eradicate the Jewish presence in the Middle East, so do you. You cannot avoid the conclusion that Hamas are your ideological bedfellows. There is nothing particularly new in this for the Jewish people; for millenia they've had to combat people like you. Nebuchadnezzar, Titus, Xerxes, the Inquisition, Hitler, Stalin, Nasser, Assad. All have tried to deny Jews freedom and dignity. Happily, so far all of them have only partially succeeded. You are in their mould. I'm sure you'll fail too. One final point: you seem obsessed with Israel, it's really extraordinary. There are so many appalling problems in the world to which you could apply some energy. There are shocking ethnic, tribal and religious conflicts occurring on every continent. These are far worse than anything that goes on between Israel and the Arabs. Do you know anything about these conflicts? Do you care about them? What is it about Israel that attracts you? You should be aware of one thing; singling out the Jewish state for constant attention and vile criticism is itself anti-semitic when there are so many other conflicts out there that could merit you attention. Oh, there is just one more thing. Get your terminology right; you wrote that some time ago your predecessors "persecuted the Jews". You make it sound as if they closed down a few Jewish newspapers, kicked them around a little and bullied them at school. Exterminated is the right word. They put them into gas chambers and they exterminated them, 6 million of them. This is what Hamas wants too. If you don't believe me check out their website and you'll see their sickening anti-semitic hate plastered in front of you. Remember that next time you start making smart-ass comments to everyone, only displaying your own pitiful ignorance. Me: per·se·cute Audio pronunciation of "persecuted" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pûrs-kyt) tr.v. per·se·cut·ed, per·se·cut·ing, per·se·cutes 1. To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs. 2. To annoy persistently; bother. You'll notice the first one, dumbass. The second one is roughly what you're doing right now. I can't believe that you have it in you to call me a racist. I mean, has everything I've said just kind of slipped past you? I'm not against all Jews, moron. Yes, Israel is the Jewish state. As in, it is A Jewish state; at the time the only one. In your rather amusing "I'm not against , I'm against " I notice you didn't mention any world religions. Only nationalities. You know the difference? Nationalities are based purely in that country. Religions are simply ways of life, adopted by countries. I'm not against Jews, but I am against Israelites because I believe their country to be a crime against the human rights of those people that already lived there. Got that into your oh-so-thick skull already? I didn't think I'd have to spell it out for you; I was obviously under the illusion that well-spelled and properly constructed sentences conveyed maybe even a shred of intelligence. Thank you for clearing that up for me. And I don't give a damn if there are 22 other countries out there. That was there land, they have the right to be there. No one else, no even endorsed by the bloody UN has a right to take it from them. It's that simple. And it's not like they would always be welcomed with open arms in other countries. And the only reason the Jews have a “tiny slither of land for their own” is because they chose a place where they were not accepted. It's stupid to march into a less developed country, and expect no anger at the obvious conflict of religions. Why did the Jews accept theirs, and the Arabs not? I'll tell you. Because the Jews got a lot more land out of it. And also, let's make an example. Say... say a religious group claims part of England as being their holy city. They gravitate towards it, and suddenly we're full up. There's fights. So the UN waltzes in, partitions the land. English people are left with more than half of their land no longer theirs. It's the same situation – and you can't claim that this is right, even by your odd morals. “Do you really think that a tiny number of Jews really could impose their will on so many Arabs in 1948? ” Impose their will?! Yeah, this is sounding more and more like an invasion. They had no right to impose their will. They had no right to be the cause of all this trouble. They have no right to take land from the Arabs, even if it was 'legal'. I don't care what has happened to them in the past when it comes to this; just judge it on what they're actually doing. It's wrong. End of argument. Of course, it's their holy land; maybe here my blatant Atheism gives me a bit of an outsider's opinion – but you don't see every Roman Catholic in Rome, do you – or, even, in Israel. There is no reason for the Jews to have to live there – we both know perfectly well that there are plenty of countries where they are accepted, and live just like everyone else. There is no reason for them to live there. Of course, unlike you, I don't deny that atrocities didn't happen. I've read up on both – opinions follow. The Ma'alot massacre was orchestrated by the DFLP (Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine) – NOT Palestinian soldiers. So far so good? Now, let's see. The DFLP have been known to have links with the PLO; and doesn't that ring a bell with you, at all? No? Oh, wait. And I quote myself: “I'm not saying that I agree with the past of the Israelis, nor that the actions of groups such as the PLO are right.” No more to say on that one. Even less to say on Djerba. A truckload of explosives hit a Mosque. Oh, by the way... only 21 people died. 14 of these were German tourists. Please, please don't affront me with any “ignorant” bullshit when you can't even get the numbers right. If you want to argue something properly, come armed. Not as funny as your "NO SUCH EVENT EVER TOOK PLACE! WE WERE INVITED! PUNCH WAS SERVED! YOU CAN CHECK WITH POLAND!", though. Damn. I wonder how much more you can make me laugh before you give up. Or one of us dies. This one's even stupider. Al-quaeda themselves admitted responsibility, idiot. See above. I'm also going to extend that quote to “the actions of Palestinian state troops”. What they're doing isn't right, but it's an act of desperation against UN-endorsed oppressors. And I'm not saying that they don't, but it doesn't mean that you need to rush into the place and blow it up. I mean, with that excuse, maybe the teachers in the school were terrorists. Maybe they saved a world. “For millenia they've had to combat people like you. Nebuchadnezzar, Titus, Xerxes, the Inquisition, Hitler, Stalin, Nasser, Assad. All have tried to deny Jews freedom and dignity. Happily, so far all of them have only partially succeeded. You are in their mould. I'm sure you'll fail too. ” AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Oh, no. I'm sure you're perfectly correct, but I just... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. AHAH. And no, I'm not obsessed with Israel. It came up in a discussion with some friends, and I felt the need to explain my thoughts on the matter, put them to paper. I didn't expect it to turn into a feud, but you made it so and I can see no reason why I'd want it any other way. You seem like a complete asshole; and I'm sure you return the sentiment. And now... sorry I can't stay longer. I'm adding the final touches to my new desktop, before heating the Jew-burning ovens up for a healthy stint before dinner.” 5,501 words. Opponent does not reply. Assumed a victory, then. | |||||
| Memories:: | 4 entries | |||||
| Interests: | 41: 'indie' movies, action movies, adapting music to prose, adding new interests, animal testing, atheism, batman, batman!, battlefield 2, being me, communism, computers, explosions in the sky, fantasy movies, fiction books, gaming, godspeed you! black emperor, horror movies, infected mushroom, internet forums, livejournals, living, muse, ninjas, palestinian-isralei conflict, placebo, pro-test, prose, rachel, radiohead, rocking, searching 'random', skiing, soul coughing, the decemberists, the internet, the interweb, the mars volta, wasting time, weezer, writing | |||||
| Schools: | St. Paul's C of E Primary School - Cambridge, England - Cambridgeshire, United Kingdom (1995 - 2002) Parkside Community College - Cambridge, England - Cambridgeshire, United Kingdom (2002 - 2007) Hills Road Sixth Form College - Cambridge, England - Cambridgeshire, United Kingdom (2007 - present) | |||||
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